Just came across this:
http://religious-tolerance.blogspot.com/2008/08/relationship-between-time-and_05.html
The author is all over the place, but I thought I’d take him on to see where he goes with my challenges.Â
He wrote:
That timelessness exists is evident from the nature of time. The notion that time had a beginning is now scientifically comprehensible if not provable – since it fits in complex ways with the best explanations for the nature and origin of space and matter itself. Since time as we experience it, had a beginning then timelessness once existed and if timelessness existed once, then it follows that it continues to exist because it is timeless.
Thus we have the notion that time and timelessness co-exist.
(I’ve snipped the rest of the article)
My response:
Mike, you are all over the place with this! Plus, you hit a paradox. If there was a before time, which is a temporal notion, then you pull back time a little further.
It is like this. What is North of England? Scotland.Â
What is North of Scotland? Arctic Circle.
What is North of the Arctic Circle? North Pole.
What is North of North Pole? Nothing. You cannot go further north than north.
In the same way, you cannot go before time because that is like saying that there is something further North than North.
To say you can is paradoxical.
So any subsequent claims you make has no foundation for validity because your starting ground cannot be granted.
 Adam
Adam
I did not actually use the words ‘before time’ but I take your point that I have not been clear on this. My point is that since timelessness is the absence of time, and time had a beginning, then it follows that time and timelessness coexist. I like your paradox, but life is a paradox! Congratulations on being a dad! kind regards Mike
Hello Mike! Good to hear from you again.
Becoming a father is one of the greatest pleasures I’ve ever experienced. We had a girl, by the way!
Regarding timelessness – there can be no ‘before’ time so there can be no timelessness. As far as I understand time, time has always been.
Or, if you say something like: “There was no time *then* there was time”.
The transition between the two is a temporal notion, so using words like ‘then’ and ‘was’ and ‘before’ confuses what you are trying to say about the origin of time. Perhaps the real problem is that our language cannot cope with such a concept.
What do you think?
Adam
Hi Adam
Yes I agree it is virtually impossible for us to think outside of the box of time! But we can try! I have tried to help people to conceptualise the notion of timelessness (see part 1 of my essay on proof for the existence of God – blog Mikereflects) by reference to Einstein’s insight about time varying in speed. I am given to understand by his theory that ‘time’ itself could slow down to zero and even go in and out of existence in different parts of the universe. This being so then it follows that timelessness must coexist with time.
Hi Mike,
Pun partly intended, I don’t have the time right now to give you a fully considered answer. (I have an essay to do which I’m already late on).
I’ll also check out your ‘ARGUMENT FOR EXISTENCE OF A BENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT, ALMIGHTY CREATOR GOD. PART 1’
http://religious-tolerance.blogspot.com/2009/02/argument-for-existence-of-benevolent.html
It will be fun!
In 2007 I did Philosophy of Religion (short course) at Oxford Uni.
Here it is: http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/details.php?id=O08P378PHV
So I am armed and ready for battle (after I complete my essay!)
Hi Mike, just spotted this course:
http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/details.php?id=O08P144PHR
.
Does time really flow? Are statements about the future are true or false now, or will they only become true or false? How are ‘real time’ and ‘fictional time’ related? Does it make sense to talk of the ‘creation of time’? Speakers: Dr. Craig Bourne and Dr. Robin Le Poidevin.
.
I might do it, if I can get the time! (again, bad pun, sorry)
Adam
I like your illustration of time passing being like a trip from the north pole accross the surface of the globe. So looking back you cant go any further North than the pole, being like looking at the beginning of time.
So when you are at the pole or at any position on your jouney there was always an orthagonal (vertical) dimension and I guess the timeless dimension (that I espouse to) is well illustrated by this concept – the timeless dimension is always orthogonal to time.
mike